The Diocesan Finances Review on BBC Radio 4
On 4th Aug Radio 4 ‘Sunday’ programme discussed the Diocesan Finances Review. Carl Hughes, Chair of the Archbishops’ Council Finance Committee said “I fervently believe that the thing that we need to be investing in is front line ministry. Every study shows that not having a priest present locally does not give rise to growth.”
Read our assessment of the Diocesan Finances Review 2024
Listen to the discussion on BBC Sounds. The relevant part starts at 14.37 and finishes at 25.03.
Read the transcript of the full discussion below:
Rima Ahmed, R4
“Earlier this month the General Synod of the Church of England discussed the results of a review of the dioceses’ financial health. The review isn’t an easy read. A steep decline in church attendance, and the amount of money parishioners are raising, is pushing dioceses into the red. This year, 42 dioceses are expected to report a deficit of £62 million. That’s double the deficit reported just two years ago. We’ll hear from one of the authors of that review; but, first, Father Robert Thompson. He’s the Vicar of St Mary’s and St James’ churches in North West London. He talked to me about the difficulty of finding £100,000 for the parish share. That’s the contribution his parish makes to his diocese each year.”
Father Robert
“£100,000 is really quite a steep ask for people in a parish like mine who are at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum. We’re in a fortunate position, or a blessed position in more religious terms, in this parish in that we do actually own some residential property. So all of our income really comes from that residential property, but quite a significant amount of our income then goes in the parish share to the diocese. In the past year, actually, we were unable to pay our share to the diocese. This year, we’ve had to spend £80,000 of unbudgeted income. So that meant that we weren’t able to pay our parish share this year.”
Rima Ahmed
“Do you get any financial support, Father Thompson, from the National Church?”
Father Robert
“No, not at all. I suppose you could say that ministry here has been supported by the National Church in terms that it has actually trained me as a parish priest. There are funds available nationally; however, what many ordinary parish priests like me, who are lone workers, essentially, in which there’s only one clergy person, find that the application forms, the processes by which you have to go through to do that, are actually really time-consuming. So, what it does is, it advantages parishes in more affluent areas, who have many more human resources that enable them to make the application bids in the first place. We have a small congregation in both of our churches with most people at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum with not much ready income. So, people do not really have enough money to give: so our voluntary income from the congregation is very little.”
Rima Ahmed
“Could the church be doing more, in your opinion, to plug this financial gap and to support individual churches like yours?”
Father Robert
“I think that one of the difficulties about the way in which finances are distributed in the Diocese of London is that it really discriminates against those of us who minister in poor parishes and our communities. Very many affluent parishes, in places where people earn a lot of money, are people who should be supporting the ministry in places like mine, rather than us having to pay £100,000 to the diocese. The inequalities are so unBiblical that I find it really difficult to see how we can even say that the way in which we spread finances across this diocese is Christian.”
Rima Ahmed
“Father Robert Thompson there, talking to me about the difficulties of raising the parish share. Now, Carl Hughes is the Chair of the Archbishop’s Council Finance Committee and the author of the Review.”
Carl Hughes
“In my view, the principal challenge we face is missional and the financial consequences of that have given rise to the challenges that dioceses are facing today. We need to be realistic that the average weekly attendance has fallen dramatically, from 1.2 million in 2001 to just under 700,000 last year. And whilst there’s been a very welcome uptick in attendance, we still haven’t recovered our position from the pandemic and, as a consequence of that, the number of regular givers that we have has fallen by 30% over the last decade to just about 400,000 in 2022. This is giving rise to significant financial stress for dioceses who have seen their parish share fall quite dramatically in real terms, by up to 40% since 2019.”
Rima Ahmed
“Critics say the Anglican Church on the front line has been cut to the bone, Carl, with some priests expected to minister to multiple congregations. The question is being asked, if the church isn’t present where would-be worshippers are, how can you get those people to come back?”
Carl Hughes
“Well, I fervently believe that the thing that we need to be investing in is front line ministry. Every study shows that not having a priest present locally does not give rise to growth, and therefore that is why, particularly through my work with the Strategic Mission and Ministry Investment Board of the Church of England, our focus is on providing investment for the revitalisation of parishes in all contexts, rural, urban, coastal, etc.; and, for me, that is the way forward. The way forward has got to be growth, and that growth can be enhanced through strategic, focussed and intentional investment.”
Rima Ahmed
“The Church Commissioners have promised the large injection of cash for the dioceses. Is that enough, though? Does the Church need to be doing a bit more here?”
Carl Hughes
“Well, the Church Commissioners have set aside £3.6 billion over a nine year period, and it’s through the Strategic Mission and Ministry Investment Board, on behalf of Archbishops’ Council, that I and my colleagues distribute that funding to dioceses for the benefit of parishes – and in making those distributions, our focus is very much that this investment goes through to the grassroots.
Rima Ahmed
“We know there’s a shortage of new priests being trained. How does the church intend on filling that gap?”
Carl Hughes
“Well, clearly, the decline in the number of new ordinands entering training is a huge concern. The number of new ordinands entering training is down 38% since 2020 and we only have about 350 starters in the current year, versus an original aspiration of 650. Filling these places and encouraging more people to come forwards for ordination training is critical to the future of the church and for future growth.”
Rima Ahmed
“Here with me this morning is Admiral Sir James Burnell-Nugent, a churchwarden in Devon and also a member of campaign group Save The Parish. Welcome to the programme, Sir James. Save The Parish wants parishes to stay open, of course, but if they’re not sustainable, what then?”
Sir James
“Rima, good morning. Thank you very much for having Save The Parish on this morning. It’s actually our third birthday this weekend.”
Rima Ahmed
“Happy Birthday.”
Sir James
“It’s a treat to be on Radio 4. Thank you very much indeed. Well, first of all, I would point out on sustainability, that the money that’s held by the Church Commissioners dates back to the reign of Queen Anne. Parishes have always needed a level of subsidy from the central Church and, obviously, particularly the poorer parishes, as we heard earlier from Robert Thompson; and this money is simply not getting through at the moment. In fact, of the of the £3.6 billion over nine years which Carl Hughes mentioned in his interview, only a miserable 21% actually gets through to parishes, to the front line. I mean, I’m delighted to hear what he said, that the investment board is now going to focus on parishes and investment in the front line, because this is urgently needed, and that’s why so many parishes are struggling. The money that’s laid down for them in many years of endowments, it’s just not getting through to parishes.”
Rima Ahmed
“There are lots of examples of parishes merging or gathering into hubs, as it were. Has that been a success?”
Sir James
“No, categorically not, I would say. Again Carl mentioned the analysis that the Church of England has done. There are two important studies called From Anecdote to Evidence and Going Deeper, that the Church of England itself has done. Let me just read you a couple of conclusions. Firstly, ‘Where there is an increase in paid clergy, there is a greater likelihood of growth. A decrease in paid clergy is more likely, on average to lead to decline.’ And secondly, ‘Regardless of congregation size, amalgamations of churches are more likely to decline. Moreover, the larger the number of churches in the amalgamation, the more likely they are to decline.” So, the Church’s own analysis shows that merging churches causes decline. And they’ve actually done an experiment on the ground in the North-West, where 33 parishes have been merged into groups of seven in so-called “hubs”, new word for a parish. As a result of that, congregations have dropped by third, donations have dropped by third, and an independent review of this project said ‘The research can only conclude the project was unable to stop the downward trajectory of the finances.’ So, the Church of England now has evidence from its own studies, and evidence on the ground, that merging parishes drives decline. So, will they please stop doing it!”
Rima Ahmed
“Sir James, how does this affect parishioners then on the ground?”
Sir James
“It affects them dreadfully, because as soon as you merge parishes, some groups have got over a dozen parishes, and you think perhaps with one vicar, and again especially in a rural area where like down here in Devon with narrow lanes and it’s difficult to get around, it’s an almost impossible task to take all the services that people need – to do, baptisms, weddings and funerals, let alone getting in amongst the community. The essence of the Anglican Church is that the clergy, the vicar, lives amongst the people, lives and loves the people as a community. And 12, or 20 in some cases, parishes dotted around a large area is not a community, and one feels sorry for the vicar.”
Rima Ahmed
“It makes it very difficult for that one person to get around. Admiral Sir James Burnell-Nugent thank you so much for joining us and Happy Birthday to Save the Parish”.
